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For many of us believers who have walked away from “Christmas”  it can be especially tough to go through the holiday season, not taking part in the celebrations around us.  It can be challenging when Christmas is a month away, and you feel like a party crasher when you tell others that Christmas is something “bad”  Normally, you aren’t the bummer at the party, but you sure feel like it when Christmas rolls around.  How do you respond when others wish you a “Merry Christmas”?  Do you participate in large family functions or not?  Do you stay off Facebook, and avoid calls Christmas Day?  These are some of the questions believers ask themselves as the world starts their holiday at the end of October, and finishes up around January.

In case you don’t know WHY so many believers have left “Christmas”, start with these articles below.

Christmas- Pagan????

Pagan Christmas?  – The Shofar Horn

December 25th Was Baal’s Birthday Before It Was Celebrated As Christmas- The Shofar Horn

Was Jesus Born During The Feast Of Tabernacles And Not On Christmas?- The Shofar Horn

The Dates For Yeshua Jesus’s Real Birthday

The Biblical Festivals In The Old Testament Are Actually Prophecies That Contain Amazing Evidence For Christianity – Evidence For Christianity
Jesus Was Born During The Feast Of Tabernacles- Evidence For Christianity
The Appointed Festivals In Leviticus Are Like Dress Rehersals For The Most Important Events- The Shofar Horn
The Seventh Day Sabbath- The Shofar Horn
10 Reasons Why Rosh Hashanah Is A Christian Holiday Too- The Shofar Horn
Long Before New Moon Was A Movie It Was A Holiday Instituted By God- The Shofar Horn

Joseph Dumond – The Curses & Why The Sabbatical and Jubilee Years are so Important- Video

Should Christians Celebrate Passover Or Easter?- The Shofar Horn
How Do Other Believers Feel About The Issue Of “Christmas”  To Say, and What Not To Say, That is the question:

My Friend Ken Rank started an interesting discussion about this very topic, which resulted in over 457 comments.  Here are some of the comments which I found most interesting:

This Christmas season has reminded me why so many Christians reject the message shared by the Messianic movement. It isn’t the message, it is the people! Within this movement resides the Joy Robbers, Peace Poachers, Pagan Police, Torah Terrorists, and Grammar Nazis.

Responses

  • Laura Finn Tirrell You are so true about this , it is making me nuts this year especially the pagan police yikes !!!!
  • Nancy Miles That’s all I have been seeing as well. We can chase away more people during this time. Yesterday I was able to simply share with a co-worker that I don’t celebrate Christmas. I simply said that I don’t see where God commanded us to so this. She agreed with that much. If she has interest she will ask more questions. But now she had something to think about.
  • MariaVictoria Cardona But you can’t get away from their garbage it’s everywhere. I have always hated labels, denominations. All they do is divide. Wouldn’t it be easier to simply stick to the Word of God and forget about titles and labels.
  • Tina Roberts Sadly this is so true. The heart and fruit of torah are often found in the love and care of my mainstream friends and missing in the ones who “know” torah.
  • Tavis Root I think in order to truly understand the Torah you must have the Love of the one in whom the Torah was made flesh
  • Brad Grooman and those grammar Nazis are the worst scoundrels! If ya can’t say it with love…zip it!
  • Ken Rank Love is a condition of the heart… we can’t see the heart, God can. We have no ability to judge whether one loves God just because that same person might still think “Jesus” was born on Dec. 25th.
  • Lawrence Wismer Only those who hear His Voice are Yahwehs.
  • Ken Rank Answer my question… is a mainstream Christian a child of YHWH or not?
  • Ramiro Casas We are called to be in union and at the same time we are called to be persecuted. Nancy Miles post above should be the approach. We can speak the truth without attacking a brother or sister…. no where are we called to do that, quite the opposite, we are called to not be a stumbling block. If we approach we should do so with respect and love for a fellow seeker in truth, with truth not judgment…. He who will judge is not of this world.
  • Tavis Root We condemn where we have no right. And if someone had condemned us for our beliefs where would we be. I think they are. Maybe just on a different part of the road then we are.
  • Brad Grooman Not that this season doesn’t vex the Ru’ach haQadosh within us, but all of us had blinders on at one time–no exceptions. Thank Abba that someone came along and explained the truth to us patiently and graciously–now go and do likewise
  • Ken Rank You’re stuck Lawrence.. if you say yes you are doing what God HATES…. (Prov. 6) by causing strife among brethren. And if you say no you have assumed God’s role in determining who has life.
  • Laura Finn Tirrell When it Comes to Christmas if a person choose to celebrate it its between them and God , I think when we keep hitting people with the whole pagan thing the only thing we do Is push them further away from even looking at the feasts. We loose out on the opportunity to help them to learn , they have to come to the knowledge later as to what they should do and be convicted by God whether it is right to celebrate it or not
  • Lawrence Wismer No. Nowhere in the Bible is that mention. Those who call on the Name of Yahshua are saved. Only Yah knows who are his.
  • Ken Rank The NAME (shem – authority, reputation, power)…. a person who calls on His power over the grave has called on His NAME. (Hebraically speaking)
  • Ken Rank “Yeshua” is not a magic word…. it isn’t the collection of letters one calls on Lawrence, it is his authority and power they call on. That is calling on his name.
  • Leanne Grant Suttles Many do not know how to celebrate the Holy Days. How about instead of bashing people for the only holy days they know, we instead reach out and begin helping and inviting them to celebrate the real Holy Days?
  • Lynn Goodrich I don’t know Ken, they might be and then again they might not be. Just because they have a Christian label doesn’t mean anything. The lawless will be turned away even though they have done works in His name.
  • MariaVictoria Cardona Who are God’s children?
  • Ken Rank Why not just leave them alone until >>GOD<< has drawn them closer? John 6:44 says God draws a man UNTO HIMSELF, we don’t do it. Why not just live and reflect God’s light and leave them alone and when they see that light and are drawn to it THEN share the blessings we find in the Feasts!!!
  • MariaVictoria Cardona Did He not create every soul?
  • David Hall AMEN!!!!!!!!!’ BRAVO, Bro. Ken.
  • Sara Harry Every movement has those Ken….It is a human problem
  • Ken Rank Lynn, if we have been seeing through a glass darkly and >>GOD<< is who tinted the glass, then it isn’t the Christian’s fault who mistakenly thinks December 25th is Messiah’s birth, he is in error because he can’t see clearly and God is the cause of the tinted glass. There is a deeper meaning behind all this, an act of GRACE I doubt few can see and I grieve over this because it’s as plain as my nose Lynn… and few see it.
  • Lawrence Wismer Rom 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” – that is, the word of belief which we are proclaiming:
    Rom 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth the Master יהושע and believe in your heart that Elohim has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.

    Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and one confesses with the mouth, and so is saved.
    Rom 10:11 Because the Scripture says, “Whoever puts his trust in Him shall not be put to shame.”
    Rom 10:12 Because there is no distinction between Yehuḏite and Greek, for the same Master of all is rich to all those calling upon Him.
    Rom 10:13 For “everyone who calls on the Name of יהוה shall be saved.”
    Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without one proclaiming?
    Rom 10:15 And how shall they proclaim if they are not sent? As it has been written, “How pleasant are the feet of those who bring the Good News of peace, who bring the Good News of the good!”
    Rom 10:16 However, not all obeyed the Good News. For Yeshayahu says, “יהוה, who has believed our report?”
    Rom 10:17 So then belief comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Elohim.
  • Wanita Panza HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I wished people Merry Christmas on my page and got emails and gossip back to me that I was “backslidden” and walking back into pagan ways. SHEEESH – if t were THEIR BUSINESS – I would care
  • Lynn Goodrich The Christians have bible thumpers and the Catholics have their version. There are zealots in every group, we should be zealous for truth and by being so that will offend some, but it will draw others.
  • Ken Rank Romans 10:9 is a legal statement Lawrence, it is us declaring with our mouth that we will walk according to His will. He is >>LORD<< and we are not… it is the verse that depicts in a visible way the bending of the knee to Yeshua. However, we have a GROWTH PROCESS we go through. The ladder is 100 rungs high…. a new believer is on rung 1…. I might be on 10, you might 15, another 20… each step is more knowledge and the wisdom to use it. The guy on one makes more mistakes then the guy on 20.That is just the way it is… but he is still on God’s ladder!!!
  • MariaVictoria Cardona No thank you I just had dinner with my Christian family, which I would never for anyone reject, insult or humiliate. Specially my mother she gave me life.
  • Wanita Panza The issue is this: WHY are we soooooooooo concerned with what everyone else is doing?? Seriously. That tells me that there is a serious NEED to focus outward….not INWARD.
  • Wanita Panza Maria – how wonderful I know many, MANY MANY Jews in my shul and almost every shul in Phoenix who have Christian family and friends they are fellowshipping with.
  • Lynn Goodrich We are called to return to the ancient paths of Abraham and the Fathers. If they are being taught that the Torah isn’t for today, which many are, that mindset must be changed. I fear many may be lost because of bad teachers just like in Yeshua’s time.
  • Ken Rank We will be judged as we judge others, and SOME Messianics judge Christians by parroting the work of others, they judge quickly and with little mercy. They should expect no less from God. We SHOULD be at a place where we realize that if we are to be wrong, we e wrong trying to extend too much mercy rather than be in error ruling with an iron fist!
  • LouAnn Smith We scaled back a lot with this being the 2nd year with no tree. I don’t miss it. I still attend a church and they fully celebrate it but not with the worlds trappings. Then, tonight we went to a Christmas eve service in our community and when they lit the advent candles and spoke of Christ being the light of the world it reminded me of Hanukkah. That was not a feast ordained by God but Jesus celebrated it. I am a seeker of the richness of the Torah and how Jesus truly
    intended for us to live, but this year the rhetoric I have encountered from some with regard to how pagan this holiday is has been disappointing. The bible may not tell us to celebrate His birth but If the scripture thought enough of it to go into such detail about and the OT speaks of the majesty of His birth then why not rejoice at the memory just like the Jews do with Purim and Hanukkah? Why is this so wrong? Can God not receive glory?
  • Ken Rank Yes Lynn… but this is an AWAKENING, a PROCESS wherein GOD is waking of His people. He will wake some up first to act as forerunners, the “tip of the spear,” so they can be ready for the coming masses. Instead Lynn, the spear tip turned and started to gore the rest of the handle!
  • Lawrence Wismer Answer my question… is a mainstream Christian a child of YHWH or not? I just answered your question with the Word. I just know that our Father has called me out of the falsehood and lies of Christianity. There is no salvation in Christianity, Pentecostalism, Islam, Baptist, Messyanic LDS, Etc, Etc, Etc. Only in the 12 Tribes of Israel is there salvation. If you have found salvation where you are, well then I will certainly see you soon. Be at peace.
  • Yiska Talma We must correct these people who only think they are worthy to sharpen.
  • Leanne Grant Suttles I get so overwhelmed. I don’t have anyone “messianic” or whatever word you want to say in my area. Do I skip Christmas? Hide out at home? Go to Christmas and talk about what I have learned about the Holy Days? Is there a “holy days for dummies” book?! I need help, but many people on FB just want to condemn people like me straight to hell and when it’s all said and done, I have no clue how to celebrate, am I doing it correctly?. And I sort of just want to give up, buy Christmas presents and dye eggs

  • Herb Brooks So if every “believer” was perfect would they not have an excuse for their unbelief?
  • Herb Brooks What was Judas’ excuse? What was Adam and Eve’s excuse?
  • Leanne Grant Suttles And what about my orthodox friends who say Christmas songs bring them to tears and touch them so deep? Shouldn’t I be using this time of year to reach them?!! Sheesh. My brain starts to explode b/c I really do want to do right but all ppl want to do is criticize.
  • Jeff Morton and Jeff Morton….May God bless all of you as you celebrate your faith and your Biblical Understanding of a loving God!
  • Jay Weisburd I have no problem saying Merry Christmas, but as a MESSIANIC JEW, I also tell people that I believe the Gospel of Luke says this is not when He was born…I believe too often we go by the Messenger not the Message…The Right Namers are wrong because Acts 2 says those who first received the Spirit after Yeshua’s death did so IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE…I hope by Torah Terrorists you don’t mean those who insist the Torah is valid, because it is even according to the Bible’s TWO VOLUMES…But those who are making it hard are causing ppl to scatter from Hebrew Roots just as the Levites and Pharasaic priests did…I’d rather educate, enlighten, encourage and edify and as Paul said he did, do so in a language one can understand. Tonight I celebrated Christmas Eve at a Catholic friend’s house…I would rather they desire to learn more because I spoke unjudgmentally than that they reject Messianism because I spoke harshly about them…I believe those who love Yeshua/Jesus and respect BOTH VOLUMES even if they are not in full obedience will make it to the Millennial Kingdom…
  • Herb Brooks What was Chorazin and Bethsaida’s excuse?
  • John Conrad Obviously a tender subject for most of us. One suggestion I have is to attack the question of Christmas with the same dedication we have shown to keeping the holy Moedim and Sabbath and general dedication to Torah. In those cases we have not relied upon Bible dictionaries and commentaries–we tried to check facts. My research into the origins of Christmas have shown that the majority of Messianic opinion on the subject is founded upon conjecture and not historical fact. Those who originally set this date hated paganism and wanted nothing to do with it. There was great debate in the church about whether Messiah’s birthday should even be celebrated. However, when an event is surrounded by angelic intervention, heavenly choirs singing, celestial phenomena, and produces a person who transforms history forever we can forgive them for thinking it should be commemorated. None of us know the date for sure–there are plenty of theories that sound plausible but scripture left out that fact on purpose, I think. What if this is a test and we are failing it?
  • Kirsten Noerager Miller Oh please! If you want truth, you want truth. If you don’t, you blame others for presenting truth bluntly, or you make up clever little insulting names for those who present truth. That Christian you mention who rejects truth because someone who is zealous for truth may unwisely present it is still responsible before his/ her Creator. Truth is truth. Christmas is an abomination. You can try to whitewash it, but it will always be an abomination. Love is also telling the truth, not giving you a bag of cookies as you continue going down the path that leads over the cliff.
  • Kirsten Noerager Miller You can’t have unity worshipping a golden calf.
  • Herb Brooks One thing you hear on a regular basis is that the reason why the Jews don’t believe is because how badly they were treated by Christians. All I can say is, “GIVE ME A BREAK”! Jewish unbelief started way before there were any followers of Yeshua of any stripe. It started in the wilderness, and as a result all the generation that came out of Egypt died, because of their unbelief.
  • Herb Brooks If you say that, “Messianics have failed to spread the truth”, then the question is, “What generation is there that didn’t have a similar problem?”.
  • Shanna Begler Aherns John Conrad, I don’t think he said we’d all be brought to unity for the world to notice, but they’d know us by love. When one speaks truth and love, what we say is the same. Kirsten , john, if u think about it, u r both saying the same thing. Just don’t try to use so many words. Can we acknowledge already that His people are chosen, but that through His people He wants to save the world? That solves it.
  • Kirsten Noerager Miller John, I am not afraid of truth. Telling someone the truth IS love. You cant tell me that mixture and compromise is loving people into the Kingdom. Frankly, I would much rather someone hurt me with truth than comfort me with lies.
  • Jason Green Sr. We should focus on sharing the truth. There’s a difference in sharing and forcing… Let people work out their own salvation! Shalom!
  • Nathan Lance Gibson Hey, I am adding some of you that are ok with using Christmas to reveal truth.I am so frustrated by people wanting to burn everyone at the stake.lol. I am relatively new to Torah and I am horrified at the ignorant propaganda on everything Christian. I wish we could establish some unity and disassociate with the nutters.I don’t even post stuff on my wall because I don’t want to have to deal with a war.lol
  • Nathan Lance Gibson I am afraid of introducing people to Torah because they are going to run away from all the anger and hypocrisy.

    No one is perfect and how dare we hold people to a standard that we don’t meet! We will have the greater condemnation on the day of judgment.
  • Nicole Goughnour So, how then, to present truth in love? Think of them as better than ourselves and ask for their knowledge on the matter. If they plug their ears even to a question shake off the dust and bid them shalom on the matter. Keep living as Yehoshua, “as for me and my house…”
  • Bobby Bennie A torah portion teaching I was listening to today during work spoke of the fact that what we have to say has very little to do with changing peoples minds UNLESS we are truly speaking Gods message, and doing it in love. Answering questions is far far better than offering correction and criticism. Knowing when to shut up is a great help too, and honestly if we are attentive to His Spirit we will know when to open our mouth and when to close it. The message that changes hearts comes in the Fathers timing, and our deliverance does not have to wax eloquent, because HE is the one delivering the message, we are just willing vessels which the message comes through. Too many of “us” deliver the truth with a sledge hammer, once again expecting immediate reform from the recipient. When did we forget about sowing seeds, and then waiting…
  • Ruth Black Ken, in answer to your question, yes mainstream Christians ARE God’s people. If we read John 3:16 through the next several verses He Himself tells us what we must do in order to be saved. I’d rather go by what the Lord Himself said in His own Words than go by what others say regarding my salvation. Granted, there are lukewarm Christians, but all we need to do in order to be saved is what our Lord Himself said we had to do.
  • Nathan Lance Gibson Matthew 5:19 KJVA

    Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them , the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
  • Nathan Lance Gibson Luckily, we don’t have to be perfect^^^ Remember, Christians are 99% in Torah agreement.
  • Jluv John Conrad there are many fine abd even glaring points. The things we outwardly do, teach to the next gen, profess and post… They do matter. The Word says we are to make a distinction between light n dark. That we r to preach the Word in and out of season. That we r to prove our faith. Xmas and the like are easy in this day n age to debunk.
  • Esther Darlene Ammon There’s right, there’s wrong! Period.
    Either your IN or your not…lukewarm gets spewed out.
  • Carlos Perdomo It can be applied the other way around as well. This season has reminded me of how the influence of the world has taken people of God to pursuit and perpetuate a lie. The world looks at these believers and says: you see? just like we say; they love to believe lies and follow myths. I understand what you’re trying to do Ken. However, I just can’t understand people that say things like: merry christmas to my friends who celebrate it, I don’t celebrate it, but go at it anyway. That’s like saying: to all my homosexual fiends, my adulterer friends, my friends who cheat on their taxes… I personally don’t do that but, go at it anyway. I’m not condoning the “Joy Robbers, Peace Poachers, Pagan Police, Torah Terrorists, and Grammar Nazis” like you like to call them. On the same token, I’m not condoning the let’s assimilate, one happy family, universalism either…
  • John Conrad Comparing Christmas observance to clearly proscribed behaviors such as homosexuality, adultery, tax cheats blows my mind. It is straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel. No one has bothered to show how celebrating the Messiah’s birth by singing songs and performing plays and quoting scripture celebrating the event is wickedness. The effort is all directed toward ancillary activities that may or may not be good but really are not the essence of the celebration. Even more amazing is the idea if something bad happened on this date, Christians celebrating the birth of Yeshua on this date are somehow participating in the bad thing. While it is evil to call evil good, it is also evil to call good evil.
  • Prophetic Circle Watchmen I Am a messianic . just like in christianity you have people that are rough but the message we are preaching is true. Sadly if you dont obey the Torah ,you will not get into the kingdom of YAH. We all have been lied too and now ,we should look into the truth of the hebrew roots and believe in the name of YHWH. and restore the truth ! and follow the KING OF KINGS IN TRUTH
  • Gerhard Chai Chai Groenewald Teach the truth in love. Yeshua was only harsh with hypocrites.

    If you are going to bash people over the head and call them pagans who are going to hell because they celebrate Christmas, you are only going to block communications between yourselves – and make them turn against Hebrew Roots teachings.

    If you are friendly and non-judgmental and just politely thank them for their good intentions (and maybe politely tell them that you don’t believe that Christ was born on that day, or politely and without spiritual pride tell them that you don’t celebrate it because you believe that it is pagan, then you have been a witness and have sown a seed.
  • Carlos Perdomo But you keep missing the point John Conrad, or just don’t want to see it. Saying merry christmas and at the same time saying: I don’t celebrate it is misleading and hypocrite. It begs the question: how come you don’t celebrate it? if you don’t celebrate it, why do you encourage it on others? I don’t have a problem celebrating the birth of Messiah but promoting an event that not too long ago was forbidden in this country is ludicrous. If you want to celebrate it, fine, but stop pretending that it means what it doesn’t mean. Again, if you don’t celebrate it, then you are misleading people.
  • Prophetic Circle Watchmen Sorry mate ,truth hurts and when you stand for the kingdom and the truth of YHWH word and laws .some will hear and others will get rejected but my hands are cleaned. and the truth is you cannot be apart of YAH kingdom and honor pagan days . what does light have to do with darkness or evil with good . if you love them you would tell the truth and pray for them.
  • Gerhard Chai Chai Groenewald I said ‘thank them for their good intentions’, I didn’t say that you should wish them a merry christmas.

    You can also encourage them to at least have the focus on Yeshua if they really believe and celebrate it as his birthday, and to stay away from pagan practices like the christmas tree (they can have a nativity scene instead) and to leave out “Satans’s claws” (they can have one or more wise men instead).

    Less paganism is a step in the right direction, and maybe the focus on Yeshua will lead them to further truth…
  • Elaina Chimenti The feasts in which the beloved of the LORD GOD ELOHIM…honor and keep holy are indeed lacking a most important feast which no prophet has spoken unto the House of Israel of!!! Perhaps this great miracle I speak of is not one in which a prophet was told by the LORD GOD ELOHIM to mark as a time of feasting… this i remain uncertain of however, never the less… Yeshua’s miracle birth is a time to remember throughtout all generations!!! Perhaps He’s coming is what has caused a great divide between all the LORD GOD ELOHIM’S chosen peoples??? In seeking after the truth i believe we shall find what we seek after for Our Beloved Father is not a GOD of confusion!!! Shalom and may His still small voice be heard by His chosen
  • Margaret Umble I praise Yehovah for those who had the courage to share truth with me when I was not aware of the lies I believed in. We can call them all the names we want to, but I would not be where I am today without them.
  • Camilla La Re: initial post. Though I agree a portion exists within that movement as you say, I think wherever people exist, those negative traits present themselves. Both sides – if there ever were only two. It is asad thing to say the least thatso many of us believers are unwilling to work on our character flaws and be transparent, exhorted and held willingly accountable to responsible and trusted believers. It’s too easy to hide behind ‘what is right’ whether perceived or in fact true, and continue in the ways you described. Yeshua is not lifted up and instead of drawing all men unto us; we scatter them. Our hearts are darkened.
  • Jane Morlan It is a heart issue around it all…..Where is the Fear of Yahuah in our lives today? What is our motives or ambitions around this. Or are we still trying to hold on to some sacred cows in our lives afraid of having them tipped over and smashed? Compromise nor Complacency mixes well with the True Word of Yahuah…but obedience does.
  • Thomas AndKelli Garrett we all stand at the buffet of beliefs and pick and choose what we feel will feed us the most. if this God we believe in is really as awesome as we think, then He should love us at whatever level of understanding we are at. no one is perfect and we all should have the patience to learn and lead as seen best by our Father above. Truth has many forms and many ways to be discovered but most of us enjoy more the art of slapping than being slapped…
  • Florence Robinson I will respect all regelions as long as they do mine and will not force it on them. we can be friends
  • David Brinkley This IS about a tradition our Father despises. It is not necessarily the message that we bring, nor is it the people that bring it. It is the heart in which we do. That being said in my opinion it is worse to “just let it slide” and say nothing.

    WHEN WILL WE pray as Jeremiah prayed????????

    Jer.10 23 O Yahweh, I know the way of man is not in himself, it is not for man who walks to direct his own steps.

    24 O Yahweh, chastise me, but with right- ruling – not in Your displeasure, lest You bring me to naught.

    25 Pour out Your wrath on the gentiles who do not know You, and on the tribes who do not call on Your Name. For they have eaten up Ya’aqob, devoured him and consumed him, and laid waste his home.l

    It is time for the gentiles to stop devouring the house of Jacob with their festivals. Somebody has to be a Jeremiah.
  • Tiamarie Estrada Be it rights for truth, in or for a country, or for humanity, within our family or community- or for a oneness in our Most High,–Ppl stand for what is passionate to them, true. And then we engage in a balancing of actions. *Relationship with one another is key, just as our relationship to YHWH Himself.
    I believe from either perspectives within the relationship, respect and love are foundational.
    When one asserts or responds in such manners, is within them self to account toward truths rightfully and lovingly so.
    Fear, offense, guilt, tolerances – love, sadness, joy…these play an important step in the relationships we establish here on the threads or posts read… & personally.
    Bringing and receiving and maintaining accountable to our Elohim, to Him which we stand before..each evening, morning, daily.
    We each lay our heads down at night, and take mindfulness to our words and actions.
    Our brethren, in unity, persevere, keep standing.
    Each of our hearts want, or desire truth. It’s outwardly where we battle, and deep down resonates the emotion be it false or truth.
    Shake off the dust, and stand.
  • Beth LeBlanc Matthews Nah – mostly it’s the message they reject.
  • Jane Morlan Matthew 22:35-41
    Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
    35 and one of them who was a Torah expert asked a sh’eilah to trap him: 36 “Rabbi, which of the mitzvot in the Torah is the most important?” 37 He told him, “‘You are to love Yahuah your Elhym with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.’[a] 38 This is the greatest and most important mitzvah. 39 And a second is similar to it, ‘You are to love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All of the Torah and the Prophets are dependent on these two mitzvot.” Let’s not turn these around….it says we are to love Yahuah “first” with all our being and then to love our neighbor. If we so love our Elohym, then we will be doing what it says in 1 John 2:3-6…which is to “guard His commands” to “guard His Word” to walk as He walked. If we love or loyal to Him, then we will love what He loves and hate what He hates…to be obedient to following Him and His ways. Out of that will come the love for others.
  • Camilla La Beth: I dont underrate the fact that a percentage of people who claim to know truth present it in such a way that shouts loud and clear that, at least in the areas made bluntly obvious at the time, that they do not have that truth in theeir hearts – because of their ways.
  • Lynn Goodrich Having been thinking about this over night, I have a question. If Christians are ok then why have them change at all? Let them keep doing what they are doing and they will be ok. We are in the same boat that the first apostles were in. They are telling Jews that they need to do it different. We are to be telling Jews and Christians that they are to be doing it different and also all the others. Would we be celebrating Kawaza so we would be accepted by them so we could tell them the good news? How about celebrating a Buddist or Muslim holiday so we can tell them the good news? We are told not to mix. I know many here were Christians first and we have many ties with family and friends that really hold us back at this time of year but that doesn’t give us an excuse. Remember Paul confronted Peter to his face for what he did when deciding who to eat with. This is no different, we must be set apart and that means all the time not just when its convienent. Are we to hate people? NO, but we speak out about the sin and separation from YHWH and His Commandments. Blessings
  • Andrea Simpson Then there are some of us who love others desperately to share the truth, while these other’s just want to be right and give the rest of us a bad name.
  • James Nix Ken I do believe your on to something.. I personally have met a good many Aholes that think revelation given from God comes with some sort of entitlement. Especially the ones that the moment you disagree with them automatically call you a unbeliever and the truth or the love of the father is not in you. It’s a joke really and it’s sad to witness. Scripture is clear without exhorting peace and holiness toward all men that NO ONE will see the LORD…YOU CANNOT CROSS THE LINES OF THIS VERSE!! Your starting fires that destroy rather then give light..

    Hebrews 12:
    14 Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord:
  • Fred Grossman People forget we live in a Christian world.Attacking their beliefs /feelings will not bring truth. It will take gentle decades of teachings to overcome some errors.
  • Shanna Begler Aherns There are so many souls out there, who will not burn simply for their ignorance. Wouldn’t it make our burdens light, and the work so much fun?
  • Nathan Lance Gibson Listen, If you want to teach people truth, you won’t have a huge amount of success attacking their only time of the year they get to see their whole family.

    Do what Jesus/Yeshua did: serve.
  • Shanna Begler Aherns The only point of confusion here that seems to give us troubles is, it would seem we are condoning anything we do not believe etc. This fear can be very evil, the truth is, nobody and nothing in this world can take our treasure away from us (except when we fail to recognize the weightier matters of the law, a higher liberty). I think that’s what “gentle as a dove” means. But love can’t be faked.
  • Nathan Lance Gibson Now try to get 50 people to schedule a non Christmas day off with different employer responsibilities and living across this huge country of ours.
  • Shanna Begler Aherns Yes, if the holidays aren’t going to be something they choose for a battle against evil, there are plenty of other battles they can choose and still be on the same side as us. Their individual reasons for choosing another battle for Light are their own. This is loving our neighbor, holding their liberty as dear as our own. The cause is greater than we imagine.
  • Leanne Grant Suttles Exactly, Fred, but that takes time, effort, and investment of self. Most people don’t want to do that
  • Lynn Goodrich Well we have been left out of our family get togethers because of our stand and beliefs. Which is ok because we are attempting to teach our children the proper ways of YHWH. My wife and I both grew up with Christmas and so did our children for a fee years. However we have not done Christmas for about 4 years. Our children are readily accepting the truths of Messiah and the Feasts of YHWH and don’t want to go back. Are we alone, no there are many out there doing the same.
  • Leanne Grant Suttles So, do you invite your family over to celebrate the feasts with you?
  • Lynn Goodrich My father is a pastor and we were given the left foot of fellowship if you know what I mean. Most of my family goes to his church. We have invited friends that are Christian over to the Feasts. Some come and some don’t.
  • Shanna Begler Aherns When one simply accepts the perfect gift of Yeshua, one does not carry the burden of investing so much self into others that it is much effort at all. It just is. This freedom attracts them like magnets. It is simply our job to keep our mouths shut more often than not. So if they don’t convert to our full vision of truth by the day they die, so what? By love we can cover that. We will have the peace of knowing we have stored up treasure in heaven (souls). Everyone, speak what you want to create. But be warned, my love is huge. You may be offended from time to time. So choose love.
  • John Conrad I help pastor a small Sunday church about 2 or 3 weekends a month. I share with them that Yeshua is the light of the world and that the light is his word. Thus to come into the light is to agree with and obey his word. In our fellowship we have a nativity play that has been performed by the small children continuously since 1958 (I was a shepherd in that one.) It teaches the scripture surrounding the incarnation and the miraculous events accompanying Yeshua’s birth. I think there is probably good cause to switch this observance to the time of Sukkot but we all must admit we don’t know the day of his birth. I have nothing but good memories about this time of year. For those who see it as evil I’ll refrain from bothering you. May you all have God’s shalom today.
  • Jluv John Conrad Greetings greetings. You actually teach fully in that name? If so that is wonderful. I’ve walked in many fellowships. I’ve heard and seen many pronunciations. Many are in the same ballpark. Some sadly mix the Greek and Hebrew back and forth. As the teacher/leader/pastor of that flock I humbly ask, what’s your understanding of the Sabbath and Sunday worship? If you recognize the difference then what is your plan ad teacher to steer your flock toward Yahweh’s true rest of Sabbath?
  • Ken Rank Paul wrote that if a person determines for themselves to set a day aside for the Lord, this is in addition to the Feasts as they are not optional, that he can, and if you don’t want to, you don’t have to. Purim, Hanukkah, Easter (the day of resurrection)… and even Christmas. I don’t care for the latter but of somebody decides to esteem that day for the Lord, who are WE to say they can’t? It is between THEM AND THE LORD. Yes, if they go offering their children to a pagan god, throw their virgin daughter off a cliff to appease an angry god, bowing before the sUn and crying out to IT…. then we need to step in and deal with it. Otherwise, all we are doing is causing strife among brethren by demeaning them and a day they set aside to honor the Lord. I mean seriously…. a Christian goes to church to say thanks for a risen Messiah and they are demeaned and maligned because some non-scholar with no training determined that Easter sounds enough like Ishtar that the mere waking up on that day and even thinking church is pagan???
  • Ken Rank One day all you Messianics, you will be expected to take the hand of a people who follow rabbinic halacha and currently don’t believe Yeshua is Messiah. Yet today, you rob the joy from people who mostly believe as you do, mostly….. and some even say Christians don’t belong to God at all. We can’t get along with those on OUR SIDE of the aisle, and we are expected to cross the aisle and get along with Jews? We deserve to wander around the wilderness for 40 years and let the NEXT GENERATION go into the land and reunify… that is what we DESERVE!
  • Jluv Nathan Lance Gibson which early church do u reference? Post-Apostolic? Many things crept in after the Apostles passed. The Apostles had the “habit of Sabbath”. It helps that they lived in a time and society where Shabbat was the rule and norm of the land… Even to extremes sadly.. Sigh. But everyone knew when the day of true worship was bcuz it was all around. HalleluYah
  • Lynn Goodrich Like I said before Ken. If Christians are ok then we should leave them alone and let them do their thing. They don’t need Torah because they are fine. The line must be drawn somewhere.
  • Carlos Perdomo You have to ready Paul in context Ken. In addition, Paul also talked about food sacrificed to idols. There’s no issue with setting up a day apart to celebrate. But if you involve yourself with something which originated with everything that goes against God, that, I think, is an issue. In addition, you’re not given a good example to the world by doing that… you would be corroborating what they already think of us.
  • Nathan Lance Gibson The church in the book of acts.lol
  • Carlos Perdomo Ken, Bro, I don’t celebrate christmas and I don’t fit with your description of the last message. What are you talking about? who’s joy am I robbing? are we not to share the truth so people won’t be offended or uncomfortable? is that what Yeshua did?
  • Ken Rank Carlos… what we have today in Christmas, is NOT what was celebrated back then. If the MEANING was the same today, we have an issue, a VERY serious one. But if it is believed that Yeshua was born on this day then that is what it means. We can’t impose some ancient meaning on a modern practice if the modern people don’t know the ancient meaning. It means what it means to them, today, period. I am NOT saying they are right… Yeshua was born in the fall, end of story. So? If somebody decides to esteem on day above another, that is between “them and God,” not “them and you.” Their INTENT is to honor YHWH, and WE step in and say they can’t? Who are WE to say they can’t honor YHWH on that day… isn’t that >>HIS<< call, not ours?
  • Nathan Lance Gibson Yeshua also talked about beams and motes in eyes.
  • Ken Rank Yeshua also celebrated days that are NOT Feasts guys…. he set the precedent for us. Is Hanukkah a commanded day? Yet we see him at the Temple at that time with everyone else.
  • Jluv It is a slippery slope to think we can wade into the devil’s den and sit at Satan’s table of Xmas and not come out unscathed. Especially if Yah doesn’t cause us to be there. Why tempt Yah our Elohim? Why let our good be seen as evil or accommodating? Yes the Master sat with sinners and the like but there is no recording of him going to pagan celebrations. Heck he went into Hero’s and Pilate’s by force.
  • Ken Rank We have a few people who HATE the church and HATE Christianity and they wrote books and the books SOUNDED right, and we all accepted their thoughts and passed them on. We parroted THEIR thoughts… and now Christians tune out from our message (which we interpret as them desiring lawlessness over truth) because of OUR ATTITUDE toward them. We pitch the same HATE rhetoric as these books. There is no love in them… yet they sell MILLIONS of copies. That kind of popularity should scream to you all.
  • Carlos Perdomo I agree with your last statement Ken. However, one thing is not to bash people for what they still have to learn or accept, and another is to condone something that not even you follow. Well, there is a reason why you don’t follow it…. see what I mean? the problem I see with promoting today as the day Jesus was born is that the truth has already been uncovered and the world knows it. Anybody can google christmas and find the background of this celebration. We are giving grounds to the unbelievers to say that we follow myths and lies… we are to stand for the truth only… do you see my point?
  • Carlos Perdomo I agree also Ken. An example of some of those people was Martin Luther… an anti Semitic.
  • Lynn Goodrich Hannukah is a feast for the rededication of the temple. I see no problem with that, however I do see a problem celebrating His birthday on the same day as the sun god just because we don’t want to follow scripture. That’s how we got into this whole mess in the first place.
  • Jluv Ken that verse by Paul’s about fasting and vegans. It’s not about dedicating a recognized satanic observation and saying “Father this is to you “. Abba is a holy El. He makes and made the rules. Are we to be as Aaron’s sins and offer strange fire? Or as the cpl in Acts who died for lying about the price of the land they sold?
  • Nathan Lance Gibson So, what if your kid is born on Christmas? Do you celebrate?
  • Carlos Perdomo Nathan Lance Gibson, I agree with you. He said to take yours out of your eye and THEN go and take the other one’s out. Not to just ignore the situation.
  • Ken Rank Carlos… it is an interpretation, on BOTH sides. I agree with you, I think Yeshua was born in September and I will go as far as to say on the first day of Sukkot. Can I prove it? No, neither can you. We use the priestly order and Mary and Elizabeth’s pregnancies to determine these things and there are many variables that could alter our math. We are pretty sure, we are NOT 100%. So, somebody chooses another day, so what? Who cares, how does that affect YOUR walk… how does it really affect theirs? If somebody follows Torah and still celebrates Christmas, are they in sin? Answer is no… unless you can show that each person is honoring a pagan god with INTENT…. otherwise, it isn’t your problem.
  • Nathan Lance Gibson Yeah He also said to be harmless as doves.
  • Jluv We don’t know that Yahshua kept Hannukah? No one knows nor is it stated y he was at Solomon’s Porch. All conjecture and assumption.
  • Sandy Bloomfield On a more serious note, the way I see Christmas is this: First, any season where we can discuss Y’shua more freely can’t be all bad, and unbelievers can more easily dialogue about it all because they are confronted with the questions He raises more than any other time of year. That said, I agree (of course)that its pagan origins are troublesome, but that Messianics can be so meanspirited about it all that they do Y’shua no service when they try to speak for Him. I would say my biggest problem with Christmas has nothing to do with the paganism or the legalism, but that instead of meditating on the coming King of Glory with fire in His eyes, we have reduced Y’shua to His most impotent and powerless form and celebrate it. Each year, we circle back around to the manger and are endlessly rehearsing the image of a cuddly, cooing baby instead of what 2 Cor admonishes us: Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know {Him in this way} no longer.
    – New American Standard Version (1995)
  • Lisa Boshoff No need to read any more… It is not about sitting around a table with some following Rabbinics and some following the ‘one’ univesal (catholic) church… It IS about not allowing the temple (our Fathers house-US) being defiled by the world! We’re in it*NOT OF IT!
  • Lynn Goodrich My children were not born on Christmas and if they were we would celebrate THEIR birthday but not by putting up a tree and all the other stuff that comes with Christmas.
  • Ken Rank Is celebrating the birth of Messiah defiling to you? No… only if you are filled with HATE and have fallen into the lie that Christians are pagans. God veiled His people, the glass was tinted darkly… and NOW He is lifting the tint. We are the tip of the spear… many more will come. The problem is, the tip of the spear has turned and devoured the shaft of the spear. The shaft won’t follow the tip… because the tip was filled with religious pride.
  • Carlos Perdomo Exactly Ken, although we cannot pinpoint the exact day in Sukkot, at least we’re not following a pagan tradition imposed by the most pagan of churches. Do you see my point? I don’t have a problem if some people want to get together and start a new tradition… I don’t have a problem with traditions per say, I do however have a problem with some traditions with shady background.
  • Nathan Lance Gibson They are our brothers in Faith and we should love them like that and gently open their eyes…. but I am telling you that bashing family time is going to have minimal returns.
    Go serve in soup kitchens and show them joy while doing it and then talk about the details of the dietary, Sabbath, and tzit tzit. .. otherwise you have no right because you haven’t loved your brother according to Torah, Romans, or James.
  • Ken Rank Jluv… do you agree that if you break Torah in one place you have broken it in all and do you keep Torah 100% perfectly?
  • Ken Rank The answer is no, you don’t. God made sure of it… there is no Temple… you are not in the land, you >>CAN’T<< keep all the applicable commands without error. Yet, we are quick to attack those who don’t keep Torah YET either?
  • Carlos Perdomo FOR THE RECORD: I don’t agree with hateful attitudes against people who celebrate christmas. What I do is lead by example. I’m not offended by the people who celebrate it, but I will not condone it. When these people, including family members ask me to participate, I just give the reason why I don’t and let them make their own decision. However, I will not say that it is okay. <><><><> I’m out.
  • Ken Rank That is all I am saying… let’s back off and stop robbing people of their joy and LIVE in a way that draws them. When they are drawn because of our WALK… not words, then show then why this Hebraic paradigm is superior. Blessings you all… Carlos, Jluv…
  • Dirk Goodrich The thing that concerns me in all this is the We/They mentality. Like it or not, we are all Christians and we are all Messianic. We all come to the Kingdom through the blood. “There are neither Jews nor Greeks, slaves nor free people, males nor females. You are all the same in Christ Yeshua.” We manipulate language to create the divisions against which we are so strongly warned throughout the Bible (Genesis – Revelation). Divisions arise because we want to appear special in God’s eyes, as distinguished from our brothers, like children clamoring to be Daddy’s favorite. “Indeed, we, too, were once stupid, disobedient, and misled. We were slaves to many kinds of lusts and pleasures. We were mean and jealous. We were hated, and we hated each other. However, when God our Savior made his kindness and love for humanity appear, he saved us, but not because of anything we had done to gain his approval. Instead, because of his mercy he saved us through the washing in which the Holy Spirit gives us new birth and renewal. God poured a generous amount of the Spirit on us through Yeshua Christ our Savior. As a result, God in his kindness has given us his approval and we have become heirs who have the confidence that we have everlasting life. This is a statement that can be trusted. I want you to insist on these things so that those who believe in God can concentrate on setting an example by doing good things. This is good and helps other people. Avoid foolish controversies, arguments about genealogies, quarrels, and fights about Moses’ Teachings. This is useless and worthless.” (Titus 3)
  • Lisa Boshoff Well the we/they language is Scriptual… If you are in covent ie. ‘believe’ but you don’t walk according to covenant conditions… YOU ARE OUT OF covenant… Most are ignorant of this… The GOSPE that is to go into ALL the world is THIS> we are able by >
  • Lisa Boshoff Yehshua’s blood to come back into covenant! THAT IS GRACE! WOW! No greater gift and I’m not trampling that blood and IO won’t promote or excuse anyone to do so! Shalom
  • Wanita Panza John Conrad and Ken Rank- this is EXACTLY why we FLED having anything to do with the messianic as we now see it. As I read through this thread I see such self righteousness and just plain arrogance. WE are not even willing to admit when we are wrong – or might be. Many of the resources about “pagan origins” are also WRONG – but people take them as well-researched factual evidence and run with it. It is akin to having your ladder propped up against a house and you climb to the top thinking you have “made it,” You are AT THE TOP – only to find out your ladder is against the wrong house.
  • Jluv Ken Rank are you really going yo go there? R u going to fall back on the old “no one’s perfect and can keep the law” thing? Are we so w/o understanding? I will answer you. To break one is to break them all. But in life there are those who earnestly pursue Yahweh’s righteousness. STRIVING. Running the race to win. Let UR light shine by both deed and word. Faith and works. Being careful of UR words but not so to the point where it’s all sugar and very little salt. We r not called to testify “smooth” things as the Israelites told the prophet. Y did Yahshua finally bust about and whip at the seller’s? Then again y did he not permit the then Disciples to call down fire? Time and place.

    I set lines in the sand that basically say that on tube “beast days”… The “hollow days”, I won’t speak against them. If there is a season for everything then in that day I let go. I’m not a purposeful “joy stealer” but i am a loving proclaimer. Was I not as they once were? I have traveled part of the world in 39 yrs and have delved in several nations “times”. I am not foreign to what is going on. I wasn’t born into the faith.

    I have had my good be seen as evil. While in college and just barely on the path, I went to visit family for winter break. I asked for no gifts but some were got anyway. My guard was down and pics were taken as I appreciatively opened. I thght nothing of the pics. Yrs later I have a child and I don’t want her keeping Xmas and low n behold the pics resurface and are thrown in my face as if I still keep Xmas. That lapse in judgment and discernment has not reoccurred.

    Be careful the words we speak. Be careful the company we keep. Take care the actions u do and don’t make. We have but today and right now because no one knows their day. If you know u can be abrasive then pray and greatly consider your words more. Ppl today are VERY thin skinned. Recognize bttr when to hold UR peace.

    I want to share lastly a mail I JUST got from a college mate outside the faith:
    “you may catch some back-draft today, but it is pretty well documented that xmas is a pagan holiday as with several other traditional holidays.

    Anyways, I know most will ignore or disagree with you, just wanted to say Im with you and agree with you.”

    Brethren and friends, don’t be scared or afraid to be a light. Rem live and kindness. Pray always. But speak the truth… “in and out of season”.

    2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. View more

    Heb 11:25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of El, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
  • Hal Hilton With all due respect, Ken’s reference of Romans 14 as a pretext to “not judge others for observing Easter or Christmas” is using Sha’ul’s words out of context. Nothing in Romans 14 is saying that “hey, if you prefer to observe Christmas or Easter or whatever day…that is fine…who are we to judge?!” He’s teaching about things outside of YHWH’s Torah to those both strong and weak in the…what???…the FAITH! (NOT pagan practices and what the Nations/Gentiles do)

    Romans 14:1…
    1 Now as for a person whose trust is weak, welcome him – but not to get into arguments over opinions.

    We are commanded NOT to mix the Set-Apart with the profane…period.

    Romans 14 should be read within the context of what Sha’ul was saying in Romans 13! Romans 14 is NOT talking about pagan days and practices…if it were, then his letter to the Galatians was a lie! Also, there would have been CAVEATS to the Gentiles coming into Covenant with YHWH that were spelled out in Acts 15 telling them it is okay to continue to go to their temples and be with their old friends…just don’t sacrifice and drink the blood.

    To more fully understand the context of what Sha’ul was specifically addressing in Romans 14, please carefully examine and test this: (have your Bible available to verify verses)
    https://s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/…/Persuaded_that…

    Please show me anywhere in scripture or in the Renewed Covenant Writings where YHWH’s people are allowed to use pagan practices (pagan observance days) in order to “spread the Gospel”.

    I’m not a “joy robber”…It’s just that I have a love of the Truth and wish to guard it WITH MY WHOLE LIFE…AS IF IT DEPENDED ON IT!!!…BECAUSE IT DOES!

    Shalom.

    2 Timothy 3:14-17
    14 But you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, recalling the people from whom you learned it; 15 and recalling too how from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which can give you the wisdom that leads to deliverance through trusting in Yeshua the Messiah. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is valuable for teaching the truth, convicting of sin, correcting faults and training in right living; 17 thus anyone who belongs to God may be fully equipped for every good work.

    https://s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/faithnetworkuserfilestore/FAITHNETWORK_USERFILESTORE/FAITHNETWORK
  • Jluv And I am no Messianic. I barely know much about them. I am simply trying to get back to the teachings delivered to the Apostles by Yahshua the Messiah; the lamb of El. May the grace of Yah and mercy more upon us all.
  • Wanita Panza Oh brother…rolling my eyes. By DEFINITION you certainly are. HHHMMMM – mercy upon us all. Interesting concept – except those who celebrate Christmas right????? Oh – and by the way.

    Side note: For any sister to extrapolate and repeat to another that I have turned my back on Messiah (I read your posts – a third party sent me your posts about me) because I refuse to have anything to do with this “movement” is wrong, wrong wrong = WRONG. That is called gossip by the way.
  • Jluv And Ken Rank i’m not “quick ” to attack anyone. That’s child’s play. I point at the root. I don’t say ppl are bad or say who and who won’t be saved. AM I NOW JUDGE? No. I speak the truth of Scripture. I put facts out pretty much minus my own opinion unless pressed. Ppl have yo decide fir themselves. But while they live and have a little strength, they need the options set before them.
  • Jluv Wanita Panza Do i sense sarcasm? By definition… Who wrote that definition? By definition who says a brown skinned fellow is to be called black? Don’t seek to place your words in my mouth. Everyone. Every single soul that has and will draw breathe needs the mercy of Yahweh. I lament when I think on Adam. We have no real details. But how he must have cried out to be restored to his former place. I lament for Moses who begged Yahweh to let him into the promised land… And Abba finally told him enough and speak no more on it. I lament the Christians of the south who allowed self ideology over even simple biblical ethics bcuz the USA would be different right now. The south would have won. I lament for do much send do many. Not just for my own. It’s bigger than me and that.
  • Leanne Grant Suttles I just want to do Passover with someone who knows what they are doing so I know how to do it with others!
  • Ken Rank There are two groups of Messianics…. one that understands we all grow and mature and recognize that God has people at every level of understanding. And then there is another group that made a few connections and seem to think they have arrived, and they now look down at those they left behind, to the extent that they now look at those they once called brethren as “lost”…. those, need to be run from. They are who divide and cause strife between brethren, something God said He “hates.” Christians are not pagans, at WORST they lack a few connections and that is assuming everything we believe is 100% correct, which probably isn’t true either.

  • Jluv Agree. Christians are not pagans. Often have I said “it’s just not everyone’s time”. Only Abba calls. He causes the increase. Without Him we can seed n water till the Kingdom comes and nothing wld come of it.

    No Christians are not pagans but as the Scripture says “we have inherited lies from our father’s”. We are partakers of one cup or another. Ignorance is bliss bcuz those asleep have so much more grace than those who have been woken.
  • Leanne Grant Suttles I’ve met the “know it all group”. I just removed them from my friends list. Religion and judgmental ism know no denominational lines. Just smile and go on learning
  • Pete Friesen There christian community can be likened to the crucible filled with silver, needing to be heated repeatedly so that dross can be removed and the purity remaining. Even egypt will be redeemed by YHVH (Isaiah 19:18-25) as will Assyria. To wholly criticize and condemn to ‘hell-fire’ is a remnant of some denominational doctrine/theology that is pervasive in the country. We came from somewhere, to be where we are now (hebraic/messianic) and there are very few who have been born into this, not knowing anything of a non-Torah culture. We who are the generation exiting our own egypt are alternating between condemnation of our original homes, and desiring to return to some of what is there… just as ancient Israel did.
  • Leanne Grant Suttles Yes!!! Exactly, Pete! I have this huge need inside to exit but it’s not so much about me but about others. How can my Jewish friends see Messiah if we have cleaned Him up and made Him a Western, antisemitic Jesus?!
  • Rebekah Brown Wow this thread has been very interesting to read through. I am someone who many would call Messianic as we do not celebrate Christmas but I agree with Ken in the that those Christians who do celebrate it, are doing it to the Lord and I am not going to judge them for their heart’s intention which I cannot see. That is way above my pay grade. Also, while I am thankful for those people the Father put in my path to help me see the more Hebraic side of things, truly ALL credit can only go to the Father for it is HE who draws all men. If there was not a single soul on earth proclaiming the Hebrew roots of the faith, I would still be confident that my Father would reveal it to me and lead me into ALL truth. No human can take the credit for opening someone’s eyes. It is HE alone that opens and closes ears, eyes and hearts. Let never forget that. Blessings!
  • Jerry Glenn The flesh is bitterly opposed, we see it when we peel back the veil of deception.
  • Louise Campbell We are often “pushed or pulled” to what is the flesh. I recently completed my 8th Cycle of Cycles and I too have the “push and pull.” It is the longing in my own heart for the True Love of The Master, for He alone puts the longing, the wooing of His Love to His Own Heart. He would say, “Desperate Heart, I alone am with you. I alone am your Way. Follow Me. I am The Way, The Truth and The Life. There is no other. Rest in Me, for I will do what I do. Let me have your heart. Obey Me and see what I will do!” So, this day, of pondering what is “not” being done toward my flesh, I surrender yet again. Resting and trusting and weeping for True Love to come those I love. To “want to KNOW Him.” Truly as He is!
  • Elizabeth Lock Ken, I know you live in the bible belt and you want to attract the bees with honey. But, if you know the truth about Christmas and don’t celebrate it, why are you SO defensive of it? I also see misinterpretation of scripture which *appears* to be done to support your own view. Sharing truthful information is not bashing people. It is not calling people pagans. I’ve never said to someone that they are a pagan. It was the information I read or watched about the holidays that showed me *it* was pagan and that it wasn’t of God. Even when my JW father and his wife were telling me about xmas and easter, I never thought they were calling me a pagan. I just didn’t understand what pagan meant. I understand that not everyone has the understanding, but quite frankly, I’m not going to walk on eggs shells because I might offend one person with the Truth of scripture. The prophets were not concerned with offending people. They cried out to them for repentance, just like John. And, I believe that is what most people here are doing – crying out, not intentionally trying to offend or call people names, just like Christians are not keeping xmas with the intention of worshiping false gods. Except, the real Truth is what does offend most because people are comfortable in their traditions. But, that’s not my problem. If they want to continue in them it will be because of their own need of outward pleasures, not because I said a few truthful words.
  • John Conrad For anyone interested there is a very good CD presentation by Toby Janicki called “What about Paganism?” It tracks idolatry in the times of Tanach, then apostolic times, early church times and in contemporary time. At least it is something to think about. For anyone interested I can show you that the dating of Christmas however right or wrong was entirely chosen by early believers beginning in the 3rd century. It had no relationship to s
  • Elizabeth Lock John Conrad, even my 1960 Encyclopedia Britannica shows that the Christmas Customs are mixing of worship. There is too much historical evidence proving that these things that are done this time of year are indeed a golden calf.
  • John Conrad (darn enter key:) Saturnalia and preceded the celebration of the Sun God’s timing. I don’t think these are necessarily that important because it is how we use things that brings God’s judgment. The bronze serpent was necessary to be lifted up and viewed. However when it became an idol and people burned incense to it Hezekiah had to destroy it. The prevalent Messianic view of mixing the holy and profance would be better put to how we live our lives–divorce, premarital and extramarital sex, abortion, quarreling and division, etc.
  • John Conrad Elizabeth you will probably find that many Encyclopedia’s say that Yeshua and Paul taught not to keep Torah. Do you believe that?
  • Karen Ann By the 3rd century, the prophesied heretics had already taken over “The Church”, so it is not very accurate to call them “early believers”.
  • John Conrad Karen Ann, I do have a very different view. I see myself as a blessed person who has two strong streams feeding into my spiritual heritage–Christianity and Judaism. There are many impostors on both sides but many wonderful fine people. I like many of the old saints and many of the old sages. Having been on the receiving end most of my life for being branded a heretic, the appellation has not been helpful and really rarely leads to repentance.
  • Karen Ann John Conrad, I did not call you a heretic. Neither did I say there is nothing of value from the “old saints and sages”. I merely stated my disagreement with your equating 3rd century with “early” as far as believers are concerned. The prophecy I was referring to is in Acts 20:29-30, and it was made by an “early believer”.
  • BlessedIn El-Yeshuati We are commanded to Love (show Mercy as our Creator has shown Mercy to us) to all people, but we are NOT commanded to agree with anyone.

    Mishle/Pro 24:1-2 Do not envy evil (H7489) men, Nor desire (H183) to be with them; 2For their heart plots to ravage (H7701), And their lips talk of trouble (H5999).

    (H7489) ra`a` raw-ah’ a primitive root; properly, to spoil (literally, by breaking to pieces); figuratively, to make (or be) good for nothing, i.e. bad (physically, socially or morally):–afflict, associate selves (by mistake for H7462), break (down, in pieces), + displease, (be, bring, do) evil (doer, entreat, man), show self friendly (by mistake for H7462), do harm, (do) hurt, (behave self, deal) ill, X indeed, do mischief, punish, still, vex, (do) wicked (doer, -ly), be (deal, do) worse.

    (H183) ‘avah aw-vaw’ a primitive root; to wish for:–covet, (greatly) desire, be desirous, long, lust (after).

    (H7701) shod shode or showd {shode}; from H7736; violence, ravage:–desolation, destruction, oppression, robbery, spoil(-ed, -er, – ing), wasting.

    (H5999) `amal aw-mawl’ from H5998; toil, i.e. wearing effort; hence, worry, wheth. of body or mind:–grievance(-vousness), iniquity, labour, mischief, miserable(-sery), pain(-ful), perverseness, sorrow, toil, travail, trouble, wearisome, wickedness.

    Evil and wickedness is defined as transgression of the Torah/Instruction/All Scripture not just the first 5 books.
    In all the 30,000 denominations of Christianity, Torah is not kept.
    Therefore, we SHOULD be Merciful , but are not to be in fellowship with nor agree with them in any way. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these the WRATH of Alahym/Elohim comes upon the sons of disobedience (G543). Therefore do not become partakers with them. For you were once darkness (G4655), but now you are light (G5457) in the Master. Walk as children of light – for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, and righteousness, and truth (G 225).
    – proving what is well-pleasing to the Master. And have no fellowship (G4790) with the fruitless works of darkness, but rather reprove (G1651) them. For it is a shame (G149) even to speak of what is done by them in secret. But all matters being reproved are manifested by the light, for whatever is manifested is light. EPHESIANS 5:6-13

    (G543) apeitheia ap-i’-thi-ah from G545; disbelief (obstinate and rebellious):–disobedience, unbelief.
    (G4655). skotos skot’-os from the base of G4639; shadiness, i.e. obscurity (literally or figuratively):–darkness.
    (G5457) phos foce from an obsolete phao (to shine or make manifest, especially by rays; compare G5316, G5346); luminousness (in the widest application, natural or artificial, abstract or concrete, literal or figurative):–fire, light.
    (G 225) aletheia al-ay’-thi-a from G227; truth:–true, X truly, truth, verity.
    (G4790)sugkoinoneo soong-koy-no-neh’-o from G4862 and G2841; to share in company with, i.e. co-participate in:–communicate (have fellowship) with, be partaker of.
    (G1651) elegcho el-eng’-kho of uncertain affinity; to confute, admonish:–convict, convince, tell a fault, rebuke, reprove.
    (G149) aischron ahee-skhron’ neuter of G150; a shameful thing, i.e. indecorum:–shame.
  • Karen Ann In Matthew 23:23, Jesus, when reproving the scribes and Pharisees, said that the weightier matters of the law should have been done AS WELL AS the lesser matters. How we live our lives and treat our fellow men is certainly a weighty matter. Avoiding idolatry is not necessarily a light matter, but even if it were, it should still be done.
  • Elizabeth Lock John, there is a very good reason why thousands of people have been called away from celebrating things of futility. “Come out of Her my people, lest you receive of her plagues” comes to mind. It was the Ruach that showed me that these “holidays” are not of Him and that they are stemmed in ancient heathen worship. If the root is bad, it will not produce fruit. I’m all for loving my neighbor, but I will not defend things that YHWH has made clear that we are not to keep.
  • Jeannie Wood Ladd I agree with Elizabeth Lock. If we can’t share the truth, some may never even look for it. Weren’t we each challenged by someone, to seek it out, to know why we do what we do?? If Scripture doesn’t support a practice, why should we, and why should we defend it? Aren’t people offended by the Gospel? Does that mean we shouldn’t share it?
  • Rob Hall To my “Messianic” friends. As a Christian for 38 years…know this…I am deeply satisfied in my church. I am astonishingly blessed in the midst of our Christmas celebrations both at home and in the church. We love what we believe and have found deep satisfaction and worship as we gather in Jesus name. We find beauty in our studies of all Scripture. And I find wonder filled joy in teaching others what I believe. …just thought some would like to know. We also love Easter..at the same depth…as a celebration of our risen Lord! I bring you good tidings of great joy…He is risen!
  • Karen Ann Rob Hall, I accept your personal testimony. At the same time, I wonder if the Almighty is as satisfied with your church as you are. Time will tell.
  • John Conrad Karen, I didn’t think you were calling me a heretic. If you were, just get in line:) I think there were many fine Christians in the third century. My view is that the split between believers and Jews produced problems for both but was certainly part of God’s plan. What happened is that Jews changed their interpretations of scripture that seemed to support Yeshua’s messiahship and Christians used Paul to try to produce a separation of the Torah from the Word. I’m confident that God will work it out in this time of restoration. I’m trying to listen to both the Jews and Christians that I know that truly love God and want to follow him. I live in the desert because our group decided to “come out of her” and after 55 years I’ve discovered the biggest problem I have is me and not the world. That is not to say there are not real problems in this fallen world. I just don’t think celebrating Yeshua’s birth is high on the list of evils. Just call me crazy.
  • Elizabeth Lock Again, if we want to celebrate the Messiah, we can do that in the Feast Days, since He is in every one of them. Those are the days God has commanded us to observe.
  • Nicole Goughnour Rob, was that a bait to sow discord when you said, “this’ll be good”? It is so nice that you have so much satisfaction. As far as I know many Messianics did not leave “the church” and its teachings due to dissatisfaction but they were called, as Abram, to come out of her and leave the comfort of what they have known. They became Bereans and realized that it isn’t about their comfort or satisfaction but about approaching the King of kings and having a trusting faithfulness that though we walk differently and that will cause others to persecute us from among those we considered our brothers and sisters but that He alone is our Rock not what others think of us. Someone posted on here about people being on different rungs of a ladder and we ought not look down in haughtiness at those on “lower” rungs. And that is true and I am not excusing that behavior. However on the same analogy, one must not look to those on the upper rungs and attempt to topple them or bring them back to the level of the one looking up. Look up, I say to the goal of the ladder, His Kingdom, and keep your eyes fixed there not on where others are, unless you see the work of the Father in their walk/ climb. Pull those up who don’t want to shake you down. Ken, I appreciate your calling into accountability of those on the upper rungs but at times it shakes the ladder and can be just as unloving to the Messianic brethren, and those against us love to see us tearing each other apart there too.
  • Ken Rank Jluv… it isn’t that anyone is not perfect, it is you can’t keep Torah in full, period. And I might add, that meanings of things and words change over time. If you doubt me, the next time you feel like your in a good mood, happy… stand up in congregation and announce that you feel GAY and see how you get treated!
  • Ken Rank Wanita Panza I am with you…. the idea that any Messianic is walking his walk out perfectly is nonsense, and yet he is quick to condemn a Christian for acting and looking a little differently. It is not MY business if somebody sets a day apart to honor God… it is between them and God. If God doesn’t like it, He can convict them but NOOOOOO, instead we have to convict on behalf of God and THEN SAY we truth the Spirit??????? Makes no sense!
  • Ken Rank Elizabeth Lock to answer your question…. because you lack the authority to bring charges against and convict somebody who calls YHWH “Father” and Yeshua “Messiah.” It isn’t your place, they are >>HIS<< servants. And, I believe all 66 books are inspired, and so when Paul writes that if one determines to set a day aside to esteem God he can, if he doesn’t want to he doesn’t have to. Paul wasn’t writing about the Feasts, they aren’t optional. He is writing about Purim, Hanukkah, Resurrection Day, and even a misguided belief that Yeshua was born on a day he was not. If somebody wants to set that day aside FOR THAT REASON, it is their business, NOT OUR’S! The Pharisees made everyone else’s business their own, and that is what the Messianic community has become…. a bunch of bitter unscholarly parrots who are repeating questionable connections made by polarizing people who SEEK TO FIND the negative and do not teach the positive. So, I choose to stand with the Christian brother who keeps Christmas but loves his neighbor over the Messianic who might have a few extra truths but does not reflect love in his walk.
  • John Symons Ken wrote (just in case somebody skimmed over that paragraph): “The Pharisees made everyone else’s business their own, and that is what the Messianic community has become…. a bunch of bitter unscholarly parrots who are repeating questionable connections made by polarizing people who SEEK TO FIND the negative and do not teach the positive.”

    Now that will make you unpopular Ken , but I guess you gave up “popularity” a long time ago. I think you might have spotted something here…
  • Ken Rank Paul wrote this about NON-FEAST DAYS:

    “One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it.”

    The above is VERY CLEARLY speaking of OPTIONAL DAYS because the Feasts are NOT an option, they are commanded. So, if somebody wants to keep a day in additional to Feast, Elizabeth Lock, this says they can even if YOU don’t think it is good. It’s between them and God not you and them, period. When we MAKE IT OUR BUSINESS, we are causing strife…. and this is what >>GOD<< says about causing strife:

    These six things the Lord hates, Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:……
    …. And one who sows discord among brethren. (Prov. 6:16-19)

    Sewing discord, causing strife, which we do when we attempt to dictate to OTHERS how they are supposed to live (which is both legalism and heresy by the way) is sin! So, we sin to stop sin, Elizabth, Jluv? Cut me a break… but THEM a break!
  • John Symons At least the Pharisees were scholarly…
  • Ken Rank Yes my friend (you are still my friend after this? ) I don’t want to make enemies but I will no longer remain silent and watch these people attack brethren over, AT WORST, ignorance. Though I certainly think the weight of ignorance stands on the other side anymore.
  • Elizabeth Lock Ken, what is it that I don’t have the authority to do? I haven’t done anything wrong except share information. I haven’t called anyone names. In the past, I may have been zealous while lacking maturity, but I’m really stumped at what you are trying to tell me here. This is a free country and I am free to share anything I want on my wall for ANYONE (not just Christians) who might want more information.
  • Karen Ann I don’t like the ladder rung analogy. We know in part, and we are all brethren, and there is one Messiah, Master, and Teacher. We are all on the same level, and we will find out eventually where we each have been mistaken in our beliefs and practices.
  • April Morasco “One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it.”—————————from my understanding, these verses are about FASTING vs NOT FASTING.
  • Ken Rank Here is what you and so many others are doing. You are having open discussions where mainstream Christians can read them. In them, you are calling the things they do, pagan. Which means, in their mind (and I know this because of how much private mail I get) you are calling them pagan. Now, you might think you are just sharing information, but what you are doing is calling the things Christians do to honor God as they understand it today, pagan and false and sin. Therefore, they close off from hearing our message and become convinced that we are a “works first” or “works unto salvation” group of Pharisees trying to dictate out will on them. And with SOME messianics, they are actually correct. Nevertheless, once they go on the defense, which we force them to by openly sharing this information (half of which is complete and total nonsense anyway – like Jesus = Zeus, Lord = Ba’al, Easter = Ishtar, Noel means No-God!, etc. etc. etc.), our opportunity to share this end time awakening with them (Acts 3:21) becomes more difficult and in some cases impossible. And if you are one of those people who think that only those who keep Torah NOW will be saved, then if they ultimately don’t because you drove them away by carelessly sharing questionable information, their blood is on your hands. What stinking difference should it make to anyone if somebody sets a day aside for God? Gosh… what a shame!
  • Ken Rank Karen Ann respectfully, we are not on the same level. If you are willing to quote Paul (which is fine with me) then let’s quote another where he says there are “teachers.” If there are teachers and students, then are you saying the student knows as much as the teacher? No… then they are on different levels. That doesn’t make one favored over another, it just means they are on different levels. No biggy!
  • Nicole Goughnour Agreed Karen. I was not so fond of it either but thought it was a good one to build upon since it was already out there. The loving of our neighbor goes both ways. How do we know, not that it is excusable, that what one perceives as a “Torah terrorist” was not reacting out of hurt by a supposed brother or sister. Of course reacting is not very mature but maybe if we all stop accusing each other of not worshipping correctly or being a Torah terrorist we could give our neighbor the benefit of the doubt by asking the meaningful question, “did you really mean to say ‘x’ because my perception is ‘x’ and I did not view that as loving” allowing that neighbor to think and rephrase “x” into what was meant ( this of course means we have to assume that because they are a brother or sister that they really do love us and we really do love them” always going to the positive not the negative) then maybe we can have a CONVERSATION
  • Karen Ann Hmm. . Ken Rank, hopefully teachers do know something that their students don’t. But they are also more accountable to the Almighty because of their “superior” knowledge, if you will. And I was referring to Jesus/Yeshua words about all of us being brethren in Matthew 23:8-10.
  • April Morasco Romans 14:5 “One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it.”——If we read the verses before this verse and after, it’s clear that these verses are talking about “eating”. Count how many times the word “eat” appears in those verses. It’s talking about fasting, not holidays.
  • John Symons April, how is “observing the day” and not “observing the day” not talking about days?
  • James Nix Romans 14 Is pointing out that we shouldn’t CONDEMN Other believers who are new to the faith..
    In which case Ken is spot on in using it to place a mirror in front of you
  • April Morasco John, it’s talking about which days to fast or not fast. Look at how many times the word “eat” appears in the verses.
  • John Symons The two go together in this context April. The fasting and the days that is. It talks about days as much as it talks about fasting and the two are inseparable in this context
  • John Symons People were fasting *because* of the *day*
  • Elizabeth Lock So, in your eyes, sharing historical information should not be allowed. I see. To me, it appears that we all have to do things according to how you say it should be done. I don’t agree with your Romans interpretation. If it doesn’t line up with Torah, then it’s not lawful. And, that goes with the holidays. You seem to believe that because there are those who share information, we are venom-spewing, hateful people. Wow, great judgment there, brother. FYI, there are actually people who are changing their lives because of what I have shared on my wall. I don’t condemn anyone and as I shared before, I never thought someone was calling ME a pagan because “Jesus wasn’t born on this day.” I just didn’t understand the root of the holiday. HOWEVER, when I did learn, it made much more sense to me and I changed. There are much bigger problems with sewing discord among brethren like gossip and slander rather than sharing the truth of matters. And, this is my perspective. If you don’t like it or agree with it, that’s your free will to do so as it is my free will to disagree with your stance.
  • Hermine Dow “the Joy Robbers, Peace Poachers, Pagan Police, Torah Terrorists, and Grammar Nazis.” isn’t this name calling? Seriously…I don’t know who you are talking about! You are not defining these categories…for all I know you’re talking about me! Are you? then please address me personally, because I don’t know if you are judging me or not.
  • Hermine Dow “What stinking difference should it make to anyone if somebody sets a day aside for God? Gosh… what a shame!” what do you mean by this, for example?
  • Elizabeth Lock Yes, Hermine. Thank you. It’s as if we are all in a lump sum here.
  • Ken Rank Karen Ann very true sis, teachers are more accountable. No doubt… blessings!
  • Karen Ann And blessings to you, brother Ken, even if today is my birthday!
  • John Symons Hermine, Elizabeth, perhaps some others – you are right not to like these names – they are unpleasant names. Yet that is Ken’s point precisely. What you call “sharing the truth” also results in name calling – names like “pagan” for example. Perhaps some thought about the way our “truth” is perceived by the hearer would improve the way we share it and perhaps your dislike of the names you perceive in Ken’s posts here might provoke you to that thought.
  • Karen Ann (Of course, that is according to the “civil” calendar in use in the States today.)
  • John Symons Agreed April, and again that’s Ken’s point. What many people do at Christmas (for example) is NOT keeping a pagan holiday…
  • Patty Dawn Fields I seriously am ready to scream at all the Anti-Christmas Pagan-finger-pointing “Christians”!!! I am so close to completely throwing out everything “Messianic”! It doesn’t matter how much I learn and try to do – they find 2,000 more things in my life that deem pagan! Whatever happened to letting the Holy Spirit do His job and convict people of what they need to give up or things they need to start doing? I will not by any means stop studying the Word of God – but I am done listening to people trying to be my Holy Spirit! I have THE HOLY SPIRIT and I don’t need any one else to point their fingers at me or “convict me of sin”!
  • April Morasco Everything about christmas is pagan. Ask any wiccan.
  • Hermine Dow well, heightened sensitivity is good I guess…but it is what it is. If the root of the tree is pagan, the tree and it’s fruit is likewise…I think. I mean, we are to be grafted onto the Hebrew root, right? Not the pagan one. Personally I think it’s high time to stop pussyfooting around. If I had heard this message 30 years ago, straight up, I would have raised my family differently, I would have learned the truth sooner. I think to those being saved the Light will be welcomed. To those who already think everything is hunky dory the way it is the Light will be rejected.
  • Ken Rank Elizabeth Lock you’re welcome to share whatever you want. I am suggesting you think twice before going on a public wall and sharing information that can be taken as inflammatory by people who might actually need to hear it. And, your “historical sources” are often garbage that gets parroted over and over again. 15 years ago I read Lew White’s stuff and believed much of it… then I was taught how to dig out TIME PERIOD SOURCES and can now debunk most of what he and so many others think is true. I believe wholeheartedly that this Hebraically based lens is superior and that Torah was indeed not nailed to a tree. At the same time, while I see the forming of a great end time message, from that same lump do I see the great end time lie. Is it then a coincidence that the vessels of wrath who were fit for destruction AND the vessels of mercy fit for hope (both Israel by the way) ALSO came out of the same lump according to the text? No… Israel hasn’t changed…. many of us desire to work toward the greater good and let GOD DO WHAT HE SAID HE WOULD DO…. while others are taking over His job and condemning those who don’t look and act like themselves. I reject the latter and will till I draw my last breath!
  • Hermine Dow Patty Fields…if the shoes doesn’t fit, don’t worry about it.
  • Patty Dawn Fields The root of the tree is Jesus Christ (God in Flesh)
  • John Symons Let’s not get into a discussion about the nature of Christmas April – I’ve studied it quite enough and I’m tired of the misinformation that gets thrown around by people who haven’t. Yep. That’s blunt. I don’t know how much you have studied the matter – this comment is not aimed at your studies – I know nothing about them. I speak more generally.
  • Hermine Dow Patty, I know you’re gonna get mad at me for correcting you…but, with all respect, Yahosha is not the root…Isaiah 11:1, unless I’m misunderstanding that verse.
  • Ken Rank Hermine Dow to answer your question…. if you determine tomorrow that you want to fast to rid yourself of whatever foul spirits you picked up over these last few weeks, that is between you and God. Wouldn’t you agree? Why would it matter to me? Well, it wouldn’t and it shouldn’t and it doesn’t. If a Christian mistakenly thinks Yeshua was born on December 25th and sets that day aside to honor his birth… why is that your business? Isn’t it between them and God? To dictate to another that they can’t set a day aside for God is legalism… and it is a form of heresy. The original Greek word for heresy was defined as “to storm a city; to take by FORCE.” While that doesn’t literally capture what we see in Scripture, we can derive that when a person tries to force another to not do a certain thing, or tries to force them to see it their way (as if you have all truth???)…. that is heresy, a form of it anyway. It is not our business of John Smith chooses to celebrate the birth of Messiah on the wrong day…. God can correct that. It is our business when John Smith says he is a follower of Yeshua and then leads people to do truly pagan acts like throw their virgin daughter’s off a cliff to appease a pagan god.
  • Elizabeth Lock This is what I want to know. If the Truth of Christmas is really a lie and we were never offending the Creator, then why were we all called out to not observe it anymore? WHY is it offensive to Him and what is the point of tearing down pillars, altars, asherim, etc, if it no longer matters? I’m quite tired of hearing about Pagan Police, etc. when all people are doing is sharing facts. It is absurd to me to hear so many saying that ALL the sources we have about xmas and easter and so on are not rooted in the things they are really rooted in. Then what is truth?
  • Patty Dawn Fields If the branch or the tree is God – how can the root be anyone but God? The root of God = is God!!
  • Ken Rank And I will throw this in too and be done here as there is little edifying left. Let’s be intellectually honest here, all of us. Let’s try to be even on this…. and please, separate out the secular aspects (santa) from the religious aspects:

    Let’s just say that every trinket and various aspects of practices surrounding Christmas have a pagan origin… does that mean that TODAY it carries the same meaning? Be honest… is Oden still part of the celebration? No…. to the Christian he is celebrating the birth of Yeshua haMashiach, Jesus the Christ, the Son of the Living God. He is read the same 66 books, and despite not YET seeing that he wasn’t born in December, he is still basically following a biblical story. If we told that story during Sukkot, not one of you would say a word. But because it is told on a day that finds itself in the middle of a week long (or 12 day long) festival from a pagan past, now the Christian is evil and needs us to come correct them, right? No… they have still set aside a day to honor YHWH. Like it or not, that is what they are doing April, Elizabeth, and you others. They are esteeming one day above another FOR GOD. Therefore, this is between them and God and not us and them. Don’t rob them of their joy Hermine (it wasn’t a name call it was a description of an action) or poach their peace and don’t cause strife among brethren and THEY ARE BRETHREN. If you don’t think so, delete me and move on. If you think they are brothers who might be mistaken in a few areas, then be patient and TEACH but don’t nag and weigh them down with stuff they are not ready to understand. Too many darn “teachers” in this movement, not enough students. Even Paul shut his mouth and went away for three years when his eyes were opened, did you?
  • Hermine Dow Thanks for explaining what you’re trying to say Ken. and yes, this thread is very long and I haven’t read all of it, and I think people are getting entrenched. I’m not trying to force anyone to do anything, or believe anything. I don’t have that power! God doesn’t force anything either. We are all reading the same book, looking at the same set of instructions. You are a teacher of the Word, I am not. You have great responsibility…do you not see ‘the sin of Jeroboam’ all over Christmas?
  • Edie Cain not always a lot don’t care for the message no matter how you say it
  • David Rapp A lot of this malkes no sense at all. For the 1st comment I for one accept my brethern in Messianic movement & have never heard of those other things in that comment. As for Isaiah 11:1 that does refer to Yeshua. The branch that grew out of the roots was the house of David from the lion of the tribe of Judah from which Yeshua descended. And it is crystal clear Christmas Dec 25 is not Yeshua’s birthday. Finally Yeshua didn’t tell us to celebrate His birth anyway, rather He told us to comemorate His death.
  • David Wilber Yes…there is a way to approach this topic with our family and other believers who disagree IN LOVE. Sometimes that includes, well, biting our tongues sometimes. For those who might be interested, here’s a short video that answers the question about how to balance honoring God and loving our neighbor at the same time when it comes to Christmas:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsLNiDADIE0

    FAQ – How does one go about honoring one’s Christmas-celebrating family during that time of year?
    From Hanukkah 2013. Panel includes Jim Staley, Julian Jackson, and David Wilber.
  • Elizabeth Lock Just for the record, I do not consider myself a teacher. Never have and never will unless Yah takes me that direction. I share things I have learned. Period. Thank you and have a blessed rest of the day.
  • Ken Rank Yeshua didn’t tell us to breath either brother, but we do. Romans 14:1-6 is pretty clear that we have some leeway in fasting and days we set apart. Not that they over-ride or replace the Feasts, but that we can set aside other times for God. It is between us and Him, not us and everyone else. In fact, I am thinking of going for a walk in a few minutes on my driveway, and spending a little time in prayer. I am not bragging about what I am going to do, I am simply saying David, that I find no command that tells me to go for a night time walk in prayer. But I am going to do it anyway. Blessings!
  • Ken Rank Hermine I see a day that does indeed have many aspects that have a pagan origin. The reason these things were retained and not gotten rid of long ago, according to the commission of the priests and bishops who went out and converted towns and cultures (which I have an issue with) was that they were not to completely strip a people of their culture. So they removed the really offensive things and renamed and gave new meaning to others things so as to allow them to continue as a people but not get hung up on all the pagan practices they once had. Now… I am not saying I agree with how they do it, although if given the time and space I could show how we still do that same thing today on a smaller scale. Anyway… so Christmas becomes (“becomes”) the day picked as Christ’s birth. Chosen by a people who didn’t understand the order of the priesthood and therefore couldn’t do the math to arrive at a September birthday. They picked a day… not a crime. The Christian today fights against a secular world to keep “Christ” in Christmas… why? Because the lost world has no issue seeing that the Christian is celebrating his birth on that day. Messianics begin to RIGHTLY keep the Feasts…. but then forget what their OWN MINDSET once was on that day, or on Easter… and take the words of non-scholars and malign those who set aside Christmas and Easter. Truly, I don’t care for Christmas though I honestly have less of an issue with Easter even though I choose not to keep it. But if somebody desires to set that day aside to honor God… it truly is between them and God. We have to trust God to correct them.

    Why am I so frustrated? We sit here and say we follow the truth of the Word, that we trust the Ruach (Spirit) and then even though God said the Spirit will convict and correct, we assume His role and go out to convict and correct. It isn’t our job… our job is to follow the commandments and reflect the God we serve in words and deed and then teach WHEN one comes to be taught. Blessings!
  • Hermine Dow Thanks for the video David, it’s always nice to hear how others are learning. Personally this is my second year of not celebrating Christmas. My husband and children are over at my aged parent’s right now…they feel convicted to ‘honor’ them in this way. I don’t tell them not to! But i cannot. I honor them in many other ways/days, but i will not join in false worship with them. Because that’s what I’m convinced it it.
  • Nicole Goughnour If it were truly only about Jesus the Christ and His ways and not the tree and not the before and after sales and the hysteria associated, etc. It is as disingenuous to mix it all up in the name of God when it is really only the traditions of man. No I don’t cram this down anyone’s throat, but even children see the hypocrisy of it all. Only after all the hysteria do many (not all, not most, I cannot make that judgement) actually acknowledge the “birth” of One who has no beginning and no ending. It was not until I came into this movement did I actually internalize it is not about my preferences. It is a death of self that leads to life–who said that first? Yes, I have made my errors and asked for forgiveness early in this part of my walk with Him. I just don’t feel all that forgiven by those of whom I have asked forgiveness. Which is fine, again, not about my preferences. My dear earthly father answered my telephone call at Thanksgivikkah, “Happy Hanukkah” which is HUGE from him and I cherish it.
  • Wally Smith OK Ken, so those of us commissioned, if you will, as teachers in this “restoration awakening” and we present the historical facts about this day, when do we cross the line of becoming Joy Robbers, Peace Poachers, Pagan Police, Torah Terrorists, and Grammar Nazis? When you buck ingrained traditions such as the Christian holidays that line becomes a little blurry. B2U
  • Jim Dorton The Heavenly host celebrated Yeshua’s birth in the presence of men, as God’s glory shone around the men. God manipulated the cosmos so that Gentiles would likewise come and see. Before trees were used by pagans, they were created by God. The Earth is the Lord’s and the fullness thereof. One can worship anywhere. If a building had once been a prison or a bar, could not it be cleansed and blessed and used for worship? Why then, can not a day which was used by pagans, be reclaimed and put to a righteous use?
  • Elizabeth Lock Because, Jim, no matter how much we try to find Yeshua in Christmas, He is not there. I don’t say this to offend. I’m only trying to help you see that the Appointed Times are the only days He has commanded us to observe so that we can learn of Him in the true, full picture He wants us to see and know Him. If we put our focus on what He asked of us, we will no longer desire the traditions of men.
  • Jim Dorton Oh, no offense taken or meant…and always looking to learn. I’m not being argumentative, just sharing a perspective. I see all the OT feasts, the Temple, and practices as foreshadows of the coming Messiah. And in His arrival these shadows were replaced by the Substance. This doesn’t mean that we cannot celebrate the festivals, but things were opened. That’s why first, the Holy of Holies was opened to all during the Crucifixion, then a few decades later the Temple itself was destroyed. The very place required for worship at one point was allowed to be removed. But Jesus had stated that the Temple’s importance was to go away when He spoke to the Samaritan woman. I don’t think anyone is commanded to celebrate Christmas, not at all. But I do think the freedom, the Messiah-given freedom, was given to us to worship anyplace and anytime, in Spirit and Truth (John 4). I mean, once Christ was crucified and resurrected, there was no longer the need for sacrifice. How does one celebrate those Appointed Times that required sacrifices?
  • Wally Smith Pastor Dorton, we could indeed take a day used by pagans since every day of the year has some pagan rite associated with it by some pagan group. We can “worship” on any day of the week. Since today is Christmas and many celebrate it as the birth of Jesus and many do so full knowing the non-Christian roots, I would agree when they say: “I’m not worshiping a pagan deity”. However, our first commandment says not to have any gods before Me, do not worship or ‘serve’ them. To serve Yahweh our God is to obey Him. To serve a pagan deity is to obey them. The pagan customs and trappings are designated by these religions as serving whatever pagan deity is on the table at the moment. Just renaming a non-Christian custom does not cease the service to such a deity. The pagans invented it, it’s theirs, it’s not going away. Putting a “Coke” label on a bottle of poison does not change the content. Food for thought, one pastor to another, with a tone of love and not trying to offend.
  • Hermine Dow Only the first 4 feasts have been fulfilled…the fall feasts are still foreshadowing the reality to come. Jim Dorton, how do understand the prophecies of Ezekiel…esp. the last 4-5 chapters?
  • Elizabeth Lock Yes, the appointed times are *still* a shadow of what’s to come. As Yeshua said, not one jot or tittle would pass from the Torah until all is fulfilled. We can see by reading the Prophets that there are still things that have yet to be fulfilled. Isaiah says here: Isa 66:23 “And it shall be that from New Moon to New Moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before Me,” declares יהוה.

    Zech 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
    Zech 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
    Zech 14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
    Zech 14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

    All these verses (and there are more) speak of the millennium when Yeshua establishes the Father’s Kingdom. All flesh will be required to do according to the Torah. Ezekiel does describe a temple with offerings still being made. These are not annulling the covering we receive from Yeshua as He is YHWH. Our Savior is who forgives us. They are memorials and, I believe, another way for YHWH to claim His authority over the nations so all can see the righteous, pure, set-apartness of His Ways.
  • Robin Refaela Gould I had 3 days with the most wonderful group of people at the Bill Cloud event we put on. They are all feast keepers and there was not one contentious person there. It was amazing. Don’t forget that there are also the good folks. They are lighting the way!!!!!
  • Elizabeth Lock Bill Cloud, Brad Scott, Rico Cortes, Tony Robinson…to name a few are all amazing, humble, gifted teachers. I have only Tony to still meet. I don’t know that he travels to the West Coast or out of the South.
  • Robin Refaela Gould YES! There are some very good teachers out there.
  • Monica Callies Sartin It was so cool today, I gave blood moon calendars from El Shaddai Ministries and they were so happy to receive them. That was the only gift we handed out – truth!
  • Nicole Goughnour Pastor Wally Smith you say that the day belongs to the pagans and I know of a commandment that says, “Thou shalt not steal.” I have a relative who is wiccan. She has shared many posts declaring that the Christians have stolen the holiday from them. They are laughing at our brothers and sisters which should make us all weep. I have since hidden her posts from my wall, I could not allow my eyes to view the evil anymore. She had probably hidden my posts or likes long before I hid hers, but that’s just the way it is.
  • Kim Daniels I am beginning to really see this more and more. “Zeal” for truth can easily become a clever disguise for self-righteousness, religious ambition, and a carnal lust/love of “knowledge”.
  • Jennifer Schreiner Dent I was unfriended by a Torah observant believer today. He said I was a compromiser and sugar-coating a lie because I said when I used the name “Jesus” and celebrated Christmas that I wasn’t worshiping an idol or participating in the worship of satan, and I didn’t believe that most believers who celebrate Christmas and use the name “Jesus” weren’t either. I also said that I believe that Yah looks on the heart and promises that those who seek Him and His Truth with all their heart will find Him, and told Him that faith was a growth process.

    I told Him that a 2×4 wasn’t part of my arsenal, and quoted the following Scripture;

    2 Tim. 2:24-26 “And the Lord’s bondservant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with GENTLENESS correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.”

    He referred to fellow believers as “x-ians” and said when they celebrate “x-mas” they were participating in idol worship and celebrating satan. I told him that I’ve never celebrated “x-mas” in my life.
  • Jim Dorton I appreciate the comments that speak of lack of offense, and mine are the same. I am always concerned that my friendly discussion might appear as less than that. Wally, I agree that changing the label on a bottle of poison doesn’t change the contents. But one could take a Coke bottle that was used for poison, purge the poison, and re-use it for its intended purpose. Neither we, nor the world, were created for sin. We were created to be in constant communion with God, before the poison of sin entered the world. I believe a person, or a building, or a day, can be purified for its original use. Pagans don’t own the world or any day. They were not the original users or purposes of this world. When I choose to celebrate my Savior’s Incarnation, I am not slapping a Jesus label on a pagan holiday…I am calling on the power of the Holy Spirit to celebrate God’s intended purpose for all days. The feasts and festivals were used, pre-Incarnation (and I don’t mean they cannot continue to be observed), to bring a sinful, lawless people into relationship with God. Jesus did not come to rid us of the law, but He did come to fulfill it. Yes, we can observe all the feasts, but we are not limited to them, or the Sabbath, to come and be in relationship with God, to celebrate His Presence in the world.
  • Jim Dorton I guess my reading of Acts 15 influences my thinking here. I continue to learn all I can to be as obedient as I can be. I will leave this particular discussion as I sense I am creating an argumentative environment which I surely did not mean to do. I love you all for following God in all faith. May we all continue to seek His face.
  • Chuck Panza Not saying they are. But this movement is no different. It’s infected with the same disease as the other denominations. In fact unless this movement realizes that it is only part of the “Body of Christ” and not the be all and end all and that it’s supposed is to add an element of truth with humility in service to the larger “body” then it will NEVER fulfill it’s purpose.
  • Steve McGann Good word. As a Christian, I welcome the Messianic movement. Christmas is a doorway to introduce Jesus to the lost, not a wedge to divide brothers who are not like me. Should we keep our focus on Who/what unites or elevate ourselves when one has not obtained….(Philippians 3:12-14)
  • Luana Flacco Learn from history: http://www.charismanews.com/…/42216-shall-we-burn-one…

    Shall We Burn One Another at the Stake?

    www.charismanews.com

    A mindset similar to the one that led the Reformers to persecute the Anabaptists…See More
  • Bob Williams IMMATURE vs. I’M MATURE. As Believers, we sometimes think that we have put all things together the way that is correct. While our intentions are good, too often we leave out ONE or TWO small things that usually would make the biggest difference in what we intend to accomplish. Those “small things” are usually the critical elements in how we should be living out our lives and how we are thereby perceived by others. Notice above the huge difference in meaning made by one small, simple stroke of punctuation called the apostrophe and one small pause called a space. All the other elements of the word are correct and in their proper order, but the lack of punctuation makes all the difference in the clarity of the meaning which was intended. With that thought in mind, I want to humbly ask you Brother and Sister, How is the “conversation” of your life being punctuated? Are you taking the time to pause and consider what is being said through the “conversation” of your life? You may have presented all the TRUE elements that need to be conveyed and even have them in the proper order, but have you “paused” to “punctuate” them properly? So, I implore you to consider not just the need to PROCLAIM truth, but also to consider your timing and punctuation in how you communicate that Truth. Yes, Be bold, be courageous, be faithful, but speak the Truth in Love! Consider the words of Paul from 1 Corinthians 9:22, “To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.” Selah and Shalom! I hope this will be put into practice by the body of Messiah as we tenderly deal with eachother… for our good and HIS glory!o all can understand.
  • Ken Rank Been thinking about this thread and keep coming back in mind to Joseph. Joseph did not look like his brothers, he looked EGYPTIAN. In fact, when he “revealed” himself, he had to say it twice and it states, “they were dismayed by his appearance.” The fact that Joseph didn’t look like his brothers, speak like his brothers, or act like his brothers, did not mean he wasn’t their brother. Apply that to this thread guys, it will go a long way.
  • Robin Refaela Gould And hopefully our goal is to look like and walk like the Messiah.
  • Dorman Brown Why do you use the term Christian so loosely ?
  • John Conrad What this thread shows me eloquently is that once an idea gets embedded in the culture trying to remove it is nearly impossible. This makes it very important in our judgments to be accurate and fair. Also to remember what Yeshua says are the weightier matters and stress those. We need to do the others but we may need a little more time and patience to come together on those.
  • Ken Rank Me too John… and Dorman, I have “no” issue with the term Christian. You can look this up but if you can’t find it I will link you. An “ian” ending used as a suffix simply means “of or belonging to.” And “Christ” is simply the transliteration of the Greek word (Christos) that means “anointed.” So a “Christ-ian means by definition, “One who belongs to the anointed one.” The teaching, if I can call it that, that states that Christian comes from Crestin or some other pagan word is nonsense, total nonsense! The word Christian is Christ and a suffix, very plainly. Peace!
  • Robin Refaela Gould -I think the season is upon us to put our focus on the positive. Highlight the ones who are kind and precious, who serve humbly…rather than always pointing out the troublemakers. Otherwise we become what we are decrying. If we desire less “Torah terrorists” we should point out the ones who are not like that. No amount of complaining about this issue ever turns a torah terrorist around…EVER. If the issue is christmas and how people should just live and let live (which is my philosophy) then we should just do that in all our areas. If we focus too much on the negative that is all that gets noticed. As I said, I just spent 3 days with 80 incredible Torah lovers. It was so refreshing! It was so positive! I want to make my focus that. Lisa Jefferson, please don’t lose heart. All we must do is walk as the Messiah walked….and other people will do what they do REGARDLESS of our admonitions. We need to keep our focus on OURSELVES rather than point out how pagan someone is or how aggressive they are with their view of Torah. The season is now to make that shift into ignoring those things and concentrate on what is RIGHT and highlight those who are diligently walking in obedience and striving to please Him.
  • 1Latonya Hill So true… this is why I stopped my preaching around the 15th and will not resume until after the 1st. I will always speak the truth but we don’t have to beat people over the head with it at a time when we already know they not bout to listen. I have been guilty of that in the past but I’m trying to get it together.
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